(no subject)

[arethinn]

(edit: Apparently it was not the Self-Blessing one which was controversial, as I speculated; rather, the Rite of Lilith, which did not specify "women only", whereas the Self-Blessing one did although I don't know about trans women in that one. See http://fruitofpain.wordpress.com/2011/02/27/in-response-to-the-lilith-rite-at-pantheacon/ for instance if you're interested. This post actually goes off in a different direction.)

http://wildhunt.org/blog/2011/02/pagan-community-notes-pagandash-campaign-post-pantheacon-stories-cherry-hill-seminary-and-more.html

The early comments on cis and trans women in Dianic rituals are interesting and what I'm thinking about here. I have a note in my book from last year's PCon about polarity and a thought that its essence, in the sense of what is the "optimum" opposite pole to make a battery for magic, is that it should be the "perfect other", however that might present itself to you. For example, for me it's not simply "male" but a certain kind of male which has a rather feminine look/feel. But for others it could be anything - a really "masculine" male, an androgynous person, a masculine female, a person who can switch back and forth... whatever we feel is the most attractive: it's that yearning that produces the electromagnetic current.

I guess that other needs to reciprocally have whatever type you yourself are as its "perfect other"... which complicates things. But the point is it's not necessarily as simple as "oh, male, female" because that may not be enough to produce the necessary surge of energy. (I know it's not automatically enough for me that someone is male!)

Comments

[contrarywise]

That's an interesting thought, and I like it as a refinement of the idea of polarity as a method of generating magickal energy. I think you're right that there are nuances to the concept of polarity and with whom and how we work with it, and it's not always as simple as it seems. However, I will point out that a vast number of Pagans and Witches do not raise energy or do magick using the principles of polarity, yet their Work is still successful. Dianic Witches are among those who do not use or subscribe to the concept of polarity, and while many Dianic Witches object to trans women possibly bringing "male energy" into women's space, they are generally not speaking of magickal energy or polarity in that context.

I find polarity to be problematic on a number of levels, especially given its common use to justify the exclusion of queer and gender-variant or transgendered people from group membership and various spiritual and magickal activities. Your thoughts on polarity above offer a possible way to integrate at least some level of sexual and gender diversity within the polarity model, which is a positive step. I also know some groups that teach about and reference polarity in liturgy using terms from nature that are not gender- or sexuality-bound, thus also making the polarity model less exclusionary and heteronormative/gender-normative. Clearly, there's room for more work and thought in this area among those who do polarity-based Work.

[hakuchou]

I also know some groups that teach about and reference polarity in liturgy using terms from nature that are not gender- or sexuality-bound, thus also making the polarity model less exclusionary and heteronormative/gender-normative.

This is actually relevant to me as I do polarity-based Work and I'd like to know more about it, if you don't mind sharing! I was taught with male-female as being one of the big dynamics in polarity and if I can I'd like to switch from that, but it's difficult, when I see it as a central dynamic. I don't want to be gender-biased though because I don't believe in that either and some alternative ways of looking at it to think on would be very useful to me.

Really, all of this has been very interesting to me (all of the above) but right now I have a feeling of "I know what not to do, but what do I do in its place", so, I could use some positive thing to fill that gap....

[arethinn]

Witches do not raise energy or do magick using the principles of polarity, yet their Work is still successful.

Yes, I know. Myself included. This was just me musing on a way to approach polarity if one chose to use it as "fuel".

Dianic Witches are among those who do not use or subscribe to the concept of polarity, and while many Dianic Witches object to trans women possibly bringing "male energy" into women's space, they are generally not speaking of magickal energy or polarity in that context.

There was no mention of polarity in the article in question (it was about whether it was OK for them to turn away trans women and/or whether that should have been stated in the program). I was going off in a completely other direction here.

[contrarywise]

No problem, I'm happy to share. There are lots of polarized dynamics in nature that one can work with. The interplay of different Elemental characteristics--outside of the gendered associations that the Western Mystery Tradition has given them--has very strong energetic qualities. In some ancient cultures, Fire and Water are the primordial Elements that give rise to Life. The turning of the Wheel embodies the weaving of Light and Dark aspects of the day, month, and season. The give-and-take of Earth and Water in the dance of waves on the shore, or the synergistic relationship between Fire and Air as one feeds and enlivens the other, offer other possibilities for exploration. The classic Taoist imagery of Yin and Yang derives from the light and dark sides of a mountain and their differing qualities.

An example of more inclusive and flexible language in liturgy comes from a Gardnerian-derived coven of my acquaintance. They use the words lover and beloved rather than male and female in their version of the Wine Blessing, allowing for the possibility that people of any sexuality and gender identity can take on those roles. This same group has both celebrants hold the chalice and the athame together, one hand on each tool. It's both visually striking and adds to the energy of the Blessing, in my experience. For some people, this change in language still contains some gendered associations, but given that the polar force is generated from active and passive energies, I think it preserves the underlying magical and energetic principles while distancing them from specific gender and sexuality contexts.

I hope this helps and provides some more food for thought. As always, YMMV.

[hakuchou]

Oh, I like all of those thoughts. Thank you very much!

I'd thought of Fire and Water, but it didn't "click" for me very much as a replacement for this... it is a polarity and one I work with, and it's true that the active-passive is there in it, and I kept trying to think of it that way, but somehow it didn't work in my head as a replacement, it wanted to be its own thing.

But I think what you said about the lover and beloved, and holding the chalice and the athame at the same time, made something click into place for me. I'm at a loss to describe it, haha (you can tell my describing abilities aren't that great...) but thinking of the second paragraph somehow made the ideas in the first one made more sense for me, or made me realise how I can apply them. (Also, I'm very glad you brought up the progression of elements, not just the Fire-Water dynamic, because now I'm going to start thinking more of the polarities between each of the elements, and I bet I can get useful ideas out of that, and it will strengthen Work with the elements too to put them into this frame.) I don't know, it's something that's just forming now so I'll have to think about it. But I can definitely begin to do something with this.

Thanks a lot! It's a lot of help, I'm grateful for the time you spent describing it.

[contrarywise]

Thanks for the clarification. I wasn't sure if you were following a tangent or if you'd picked up on a something I may have missed in my earlier reading of The Wild Hunt's post and comments. But since "male energy" is often spoken about in the context of polarity Workings as well as in reference to trans women when justifying their exclusion from women's spaces, it seemed relevant to point that out.

[contrarywise]

You're welcome! I'm glad you found it helpful and inspiring.

[valkyriur.livejournal.com]

I've discussed the male to female thing at length in some locked posts. The need for a male to female should only come into play, I think, when you are working with a system that hinges on balances of the male to female, which most of the older systems are (I know very little about the Dianic system, so this is a commentary on the general systems). In these cases, male and female are strictly sex, not gender. I think that's absolutely necessary to understand. One of the biggest challenges is that most ritual magic was written for males, so females have to study these magical symbols carefully and adapt them if they wish to use them "properly". If I haven't mentioned this before, they'll normally work well-enough on their own, but to get the full benefit one would have to rebalance them, much like a chemistry equation. It has to be thought of in alchemical terms.

[arethinn]

I think, when you are working with a system that hinges on balances of the male to female, which most of the older systems are (I know very little about the Dianic system, so this is a commentary on the general systems)

"Dianic" in this context is women-only. If you read the article and comments, it seems that some trans women were turned away at one of the rituals at PantheaCon and the discussion was over whether that was unfair and/or they ought to have stated in the program description that it was specifically cis women only. (I'm guessing it may have been the "Self-Blessing" one which involved some nudity on the part of the participants.)

[valkyriur.livejournal.com]

I would think that the reason it wasn't specified was that they hadn't encountered the situation before. If they decide to be cis only, I hope in the future they will specify it. And if they decide to allow transwomen, they'll hopefully note that, as well.

As for whether it's fair or not, well,...these kinds of things are complicated. When people hear "women only" they think female-bodied, not female gendered. Whether the group decides to be cis only or trans only or all women, it's going to alienate somebody. I think the best a person can hope to do is to make it clear on what they mean and apologize for any hurt feelings.