re: woman, girl, whatever

[arethinn]

dancinglights brought up the term "lady" and its uses, and I made a remark myself in a comment to someone else about how I thought maybe people just used my name rather than a generic term if they needed to refer to me, but it actually does make me curious what word or words other people might use for me. Out of the following choices I think I would mostly use "girl" for myself (although as mentioned, I think I may be growing out of it). You?

[Poll #981789]

Comments

[twopiearr.livejournal.com]

"gal" is a term I use fairly generically when "female" seems to clinical...

[enotsola]

Beloved doesn't count, does it? Fiancee? Wife?

[arethinn]

"This beloved"? "This fiancee"? They're not generic terms; they're possessive ones.

And ewww, wife. I have no problem (aside from the "...whoa" factor) thinking of you as husband but I don't think I'm going to be anyone's wife, thank you.

[silvaerina-tael.livejournal.com]

As far as the other comment is concerned, I'm thinking 'androgen'.

[arethinn]

You would refer to me as an "androgen"? Why?

[silvaerina-tael.livejournal.com]

Not that you seem 'sexless' per say, but more... gender fluid than most with regards to energy sig and body type... That is to say that you could pass as either under the right circumstances, and this is without makeup or costuming. Cel comes across as something similar, though somewhat reversed.

Let me know if this makes any sense.

[arethinn]

I know what you mean, but I find it partly odd (since it is not something I am trying to do) and partly disappointing (since I want to be female, and attractive female at that, which to me pretty much precludes masculine characteristics).

[silvaerina-tael.livejournal.com]

I guess my view of gender is different. I find "pretty" males and females aesthetically pleasing, especially if they have what I would consider "Elven" looks, which you do. I tend to view myself with an 'overabundance' of feminine traits...

That said, you *are* attractive, and feminine, and pretty, just not... overtly so (at least to the point where they exude 'femaleness'. Than any sort of overt sexual overtones I am uncomfortable with regardless of whether it's male or female).

[arethinn]

"I find "pretty" males and females aesthetically pleasing,"

So do I. To me, "pretty" requires typically "feminine" characteristics (e.g. fine bone structure, soft clear skin, long hair, long eyelashes, etc.), so for either a male or female to be "pretty" to me, they are necessarily also "feminine".

It is also possible to be "handsome" (which involves some typically "masculine" characteristics), but that's a whole different set of aesthetic appreciation. Not generally something I am attracted to per se in the case of males (which is different WRT most of society, but you and I seem fairly similar in that regard), and something that I usually find specifically unattractive in females.

"just not... overtly so (at least to the point where they exude 'femaleness'. Than any sort of overt sexual overtones I am uncomfortable with"

See, I think I rather would "exude femaleness". To me that is a position of power, and more generally attractive rather than just to a niche market ;).

[silvaerina-tael.livejournal.com]

"See, I think I rather would "exude femaleness". To me that is a position of power, and more generally attractive rather than just to a niche market ;)."

Ok, I see where you are coming from with this. I think for me, it's my perceived slant on sexuality, and seeing myself as "neutral" rather than male or female, hence being uncomfortable with the whole thing.

[silvaerina-tael.livejournal.com]

Like the icon, btw... as I'm currently playing a Malkie in an RPG...

[enotsola]

Yeah, I tend to agree on wife. I'm not sure what to use as an alternate though..

how about hawtness? :D

[kalagni.livejournal.com]

I'd say person, because I try to avoid using gender specific terms unless someone uses it about themselves first.

[arethinn]

I don't think the state's marriage license forms will accomodate such a term...

[ahril.livejournal.com]

When referring to you in conversation with Husband I usually say, "My friend tass..." because you are my friend first and, to me, gender is a secondary or even tertiary component of who people are for me.

When I was your age, I felt the same way about "girls" and "woman" as descriptive terms. In my mind, I wasn't yet a woman, but was outgrowing "girl". I definitely call myself a woman now though (which is for me more about female adult vs. female child than traditional man/woman gender roles), and honestly, bearing children isn't what really did it for me. It was just aging and maturing to a certain point to where I felt that I was finally an adult, that I had the confidence adults have, and was looked upon by my colleagues at work in their 50's and 60's as an adult rather than a "just-out-of-college kid".

The moment came a few months after I turned 35 (I'll be 38 this December). I don't think there was a specific event that triggered the change. It was just a slow and gradual thing.

It felt good to finally grow up, to finally be confident in my own skin.

[heartssdesire.livejournal.com]

I am most likely to say 'girl' 'woman' or 'person'.

I feel like 'gal' is a word that comes out of the mouths of guys with handlebar moustaches. I can't remember the last time I used it.

'Lass' is what guys in utilikilts call girls they want to impress. Way too pretentious and pseudo-archaic for me.

'Lady', well maybe but only if I was being sarcastic for some reason. 'Chick' also, occasionally pops out of my mouth when I'm on a ramble or not paying terribly much attention.

'Other' in your case was something like a string of adjectives and nouns stuck together when it didn't seem like one of them was doing the job by itself or I didn't know which one was proper. Something like "you know that tass person, the faerie otherkin elf girl thing from lj?". :)

[shalora.livejournal.com]

I must confess, I'd probably default to "girl" just 'cause I haven't seen you in, um, how many years now? We haven't spent much "face time" since we were kids; my mental image of you is over 10 years old, as I'm sure yours is of me also... :)

pet peeve

[baxil.livejournal.com]

The use of "girl" as a generic descriptor for females is one of our society's most pernicious phrases. I've had to train myself out of it since childhood, and I really dislike society for it.

I only use "girl" for circumstances in which I would call her a "boy" if she was male.

[arethinn]

Yeah, no kidding. My mother still has a picture up of you, me, Cat, and Marina wearing our ceremonial gowns, taken in De Anza Park, which informs my mental image of you somewhat as whatever I had from last actual contact (um... high school?) has rather faded... but that picture was taken in 6th grade!

[tyrsalvia.livejournal.com]

I'd probably just say "my friend Tass" rather than refer to your gender as a personhood-describing noun.

I have this same problem. "Woman" brings up images of very normal looking female people who are at least five years older than I am. I think the normality is a big part of it - someone who is kind of a subculture freak does not read as "woman" to me because "woman" is always foreign, other, like a teacher when I'm a little kid.

I am used to being "girl" and so I would still likely call my female friends who are weirdos and around my age "girls" because that's the category for people more like me. Does that make sense?

I totally don't think of myself as a woman. I think of myself as genderqueer, a girl, a person, and sometimes I identify with "women" in the greater plural sense, but never in the singular sense.

I'm kinda weird like that, though.

[arethinn]

I'm a-hearin' you on FM. Your description of "...because that's the word I use for 'people more like me'" makes a lot of sense. (OTOH, there must be some age component, because I think of m0usegrrl, for example, as a woman, whereas if not "friend" or "person", I would similarly use "girl" for you as you do for yourself and might for me.) I don't think I would use the word "woman" for you either, except in that general sense you mention that the plural "women" does include you.

It's weird how these applications of terms to people happen when we're not looking...

[dancinglights.livejournal.com]

"other" would just be the use of "friend" or talking around it with "someone I know" blah blah "she" blah blah "tass", which is usually how I refer to people, slipping in names and genders without resorting to such terminology whenever possible. "Chick" if only because "elfchick" has somehow insinuated itself into my vocabulary as a rar-stompy-respectful usage of the word "chick" in reference to fae-ish adult females.

Ashran's commentary has reminded me of how I've always liked the Tarot having a knight between page and king, and that most of the guys I'm friends with really fall into that "knight" perceived age and stature category. I wish there were a simple word for it in English (maybe "guy" suffices), but even moreso I wish we had a female analogue to it even in concept.

[arethinn]

"I usually say, "My friend [info]tass..." because you are my friend first

Aww. *warm fuzzies* Actually though, I would prefer this sentence construction too. That's why I gave the example I wanted people to fill in the blank for, since I figured many people might default to a relational term like "friend" (as opposed to general term -- i.e., something that takes "my" rather than an article).

"When I was your age"

...she says as though the difference were vast. ;)

[arethinn]

"'gal' is a word that comes out of the mouths of guys with handlebar moustaches"

*giggles* I can see that. (That said, my co-worker Alicia often uses "gal" as a general term for people of about my age, but her first language is not English, so she often has trouble with the subtle nuances of various English words, and tends to latch onto a phrase or word and use it repeatedly for all kinds of situations even when it might not really be applicable in my native-speaker way of thinking.)

"Lass' is what guys in utilikilts call girls they want to impress."

LOL!

Something like "you know that tass person, the faerie otherkin elf girl thing from lj?". :)

Heheh! But see, you used "person" there, which was the type of answer I was after. I use "person" a lot myself.

Re: pet peeve

[arethinn]

I would probably call me a boy if I was male... but... well... I dunno.

[arethinn]

"Strapping young lad"? ;)

[ahril.livejournal.com]

Well, "pushing 40" and "almost 30" are two entirely different things. LOL

[arethinn]

Yes, but my mother is another 25 years older than you are, so that means the difference between you and me is only 2/7 the difference between me and her -- thus, it doesn't feel all that big to me.

[helen99.livejournal.com]

I usually just refer to you by your name. I've never actually referred to you to anyone who never met you or didn't know you in some context, so "this girl I know" has never been necessary. In the event I had to use such a descriptor, "this girl I know called E" would probably be what I would say, mostly because 'this star-being I know with female sidhe characteristics' would probably get me stared at oddly (and would take too long to say)...