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I am just not having a good weekend. The material in the Underworld workshop has been good, but aside from the annoyance of getting up in the morning, I sat there the whole afternoon feeling very out of place because with only a couple exceptions, I am easily 15-25 years the junior of everyone else in the room, and feeling like I shouldn't even be there because I was not having deep, interesting experiences and in fact was often failing to have the basic part, that of feeling I was actually within the Underworld. It's making me seriously question whether I want to spend another $180 to most likely repeat the experience in July. I thought going to actual workshops would be helpful, but when it's clear I'm far behind everyone else, it hardly makes it worth it, because I feel so bad. In fact I'm rather questioning my right to be in any such place, including gathers. I remember in one of the workshops at Pantheacon that Orion Foxwood was talking about having Sight, and how this is something one is either born with or is not, and it's either awake all one's life, or shows up in puberty. As I'm now 25 it seems highly unlikely I'm suddenly going to "bloom" someday, so lacking even the basic aptitude that would be necessary to work in magical tradition, it makes me wonder what the fuck I think I am doing? Similar with gathers.. obviously that is also something one is, or is not, and it seems like jazz ("if you have to ask, you'll never know")... something where "if you have to question whether you are, then you're not".
no subject
Date: May. 29th, 2004 10:47 pm (UTC)From:no subject
Date: May. 29th, 2004 10:53 pm (UTC)From:He's a very nice gentleman himself; in fact, everyone there is quite nice. I'm just... not belonging.
no subject
Date: May. 29th, 2004 11:01 pm (UTC)From:no subject
Date: May. 29th, 2004 11:08 pm (UTC)From:no subject
Date: May. 29th, 2004 11:13 pm (UTC)From:I personally believe that every person has "sight" and that it simply varies in degrees. I also believe it gets better as it is worked with. I hope you do not give up on yours. You're one of the more innately magical people I know, and I think you have much more inherent talent than you are presently comfortable with recognizing.
no subject
Date: May. 29th, 2004 11:35 pm (UTC)From:I personally believe that every person has "sight" and that it simply varies in degrees.
Well, there may be a slight terminology difference here; "Sight" in the cunning/faery context of the workshop (and of traditional seership in general) is a bit more specific than how it's commonly used to just mean "psychic perceptions" (which I still disagree that everyone has, but here nor there). More and more I'm coming to realize that there are just inherent differences in "greatness" of about every attribute one could think of, and there's no way everyone's ever going to be anything like equal, even given infinite time.
You're one of the more innately magical people I know
Uh, you've met me what, four times tops? What on earth are you basing this on?
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Date: May. 30th, 2004 12:25 am (UTC)From:Uh, you've met me what, four times tops? What on earth are you basing this on?
a) Seeing you every year at Thresholds since 1999. Admittedly, you're usually buzzing from proximity to Cel so my estimate of your magicalness may be different from what it would be if I saw you by yourself, but there are other things too.
b) I've seen you making Cel buzz in return, and have felt the energy you two can give off when paired. Most people I know don't do this, not even when paired with a deeply connected partner.
c) I've participated in ritual with you at Thresholds. Once, it was even a ritual you helped co-run with Cel.
d) I'm a fairly frequent visitor to your website and journal. You place a good bit of magic in both places, much more than many who claim to be magical beings.
e) The same is true of many of the posts I've seen you make to lists over the years. You put your soul into things you make, even posts in some cases, and the end result is magical in my opinion.
But hey, it was just meant as a compliment and encouragement, nothing more. If you don't think I know you well enough for you to feel comfortable with me making such a statement, I'm willing to withdraw it. I meant no offense, nor did I mean to assume an inappropriate familiarity.
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Date: May. 31st, 2004 01:10 am (UTC)From:Those were the "four times tops" I was referring to. I don't think that's a big enough sample. Really, stick them together. Pretend we were all there for four days straight. Do you really think that's enough time to get a sense of someone?
Admittedly, you're usually buzzing from proximity to Cel
Continuing to consider that your samples are WtT only, I haven't been doing so since 2001, so while I guess that's 3 out of 4 WtTs you've seen me at, I still don't think of it as "usually".
c) I've participated in ritual with you at Thresholds. Once, it was even a ritual you helped co-run with Cel.
I can't make any speculations about rituals in other years, but the 2002 one (the one you mention) was, in a word, wrong. If nothing else, let us say that was "the bad year".
d) I'm a fairly frequent visitor to your website and journal. You place a good bit of magic in both places
Keep in mind that a lot of my website dates several years back. As for my journal, you're in on a couple filters, so this is not something that's generally present.
e) The same is true of many of the posts I've seen you make to lists over the years.
I really have no idea what you are talking about here, honestly, because my own memory* of most of my posts is short, negatively-centred things, much like my journal posts are. You know, the kind of things that often start with "actually...".
* - For the last several years, at least, and I think this would be borne out by archive searches, since I've done them for other things and run across my own posts in the process.
If you don't think I know you well enough for you to feel comfortable with me making such a statement, I'm willing to withdraw it
It's not "comfort"; I simply think you can't possibly have a large enough sample to base any kind of reasonable conclusion on. It's like looking at an angel food cake and going "this tastes good so it must be easy to make". It's just nonsense.
(well, easy maybe if you already have cooking skills. I know when I tried to make one for the first time when I was a child, I had no idea what "stiff peaks" meant on the egg whites, and wound up with a baked omelet thing in the pan rather than a cake...)
no subject
Date: May. 31st, 2004 01:35 am (UTC)From:I'm not going to argue with you over this, though. I've stated my perception... you clearly choose not to accept it as accurate, and that's your choice. Trying to convince you to accept it would be a waste of time far better spent trying to convince Dusk he really is beautiful.... ;-)
no subject
Date: May. 30th, 2004 12:38 am (UTC)From:This is specifically in reference to precognitive ability, then?
It's the only thing--including ability to perceive a peron's nature, see through glamer, etc--that I think is primarily determined by innate ability. even then, there can be exceptions.
I could, of course, be wrong.
As for "sight" in general, I have a friend who is in his mid-20s who spent some time a while back telling me he didn't have it. I got him talking about his few experiences, and when we were done, I pointed out to him every time I'd seen of when he had used some kind of sight.
He'd simply been looking for something spectacular, awe-inspiring, and undeniable. We can physically see, hear, and touch something and still have doubts about whether or not it's real. Why should this be any different?
no subject
Date: May. 31st, 2004 12:51 am (UTC)From:Well, that's more of a side effect, as far as I can tell; it has more specifically to do with perceiving and interacting with the Faery/Ancestral realms, I think. The main example focused on was receiving communications from "ghosts" or other spirit beings (raps, direct appearances..), but other things seemed to fall into it as well.
no subject
Date: May. 30th, 2004 12:21 am (UTC)From:There's a large pool of us... who feel a connection to magick, to the otherworld-realms, but don't perceive it the same way it's being described by the mystics. I can feel something, I can tell when the conduit is open, and often I can describe it...but I don't really see it. Don't hear it.
I must be getting something, because people who say they can see it tell me I'm describing it right. And I can perceive patterns... but patterns aren't images, aren't sound-and-touch that get past my Skeptometer to tell me This Is Real. I'm never sure how much I'm "perceiving" and how much I'm "making up."
(Am told by some experienced mystical types who go on tremendous vision quests that they get the same problem. At the core, there's always this little voice saying "did that really happen, or is my mind playing tricks on me?" When the little voice shuts up, the nice men in the white suits bring you a nifty extra-long-sleeve jacket to wear...)
Anyway. I'm regularly annoyed that some pagan communities shun anyone who doesn't dive into the uber-Mystic dreams-n-visions, trance-to-divination, intuitive inspirational style of magic & ritual. (Shunned, or they get slowly but firmly pushed at Qabalah. "Don't you want something more structured, dear?") I used to think it was just me... I don't get this "sight" thingie; maybe I'm just not very "magickal;" maybe I'm trying to force this connection instead of it being something I'm pulled toward.
Then I see several other people tackling the same issues, and some of 'em are ones I feel are truly magickal, very powerful, the Gods move through them & speak through their lives... and still, we've all got these weird self-doubts that boil down to "what are all those chanting people pointing at, and why don't I see it?"
(Maybe I'm way off on all this, and I've just outed myself as a big phony. Oh well.)
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Date: May. 30th, 2004 08:44 am (UTC)From:Tangentially related, I've found that the degree of true "magicalness" a person possesses and radiates is inversely proportional to the number of times they've claimed to have been "psychically attacked" or engaged in "magical battles" or tussled with (and won, naturally) some incredible otherwordly strange beastie.
I used to fall into that nonsense trap with my ex (whom Tass would remember). He had the approximate magical Presence of a brick, and would constantly talk about all these things he was doing, defending against, experiencing, etc. along with occasionally poking at me along the lines that I was somehow lacking, weaker, beneath notice, etc since I wasn't experiencing massive magical/psychic attacks every other day. So naturally, I started going along with what he was saying.
Truth is, he wasn't experiencing them either. He was just a dreadfully insecure and pointless little drama queen trying to make himself look bigger and more powerful than he really was.
You have to watch for that, for people in pagan communities who insist that magic involves being smacked over the head with anything. It's very subtle and each of us perceives it in ways that are unique to us. Me, I do a very significant amount of my work in the dreamtime, and I do use trance for visionquest but that's because it works for me. I can't do jack for readings using physical media such as cards or runes, and my "Sight" as it were is almost entirely intuitive. I've never "seen" a lot of things many pagans claim are so commonplace as to be de rigeur for anyone with "talent" to see, but I've learned over the years to trust my own inner promptings.
no subject
Date: May. 31st, 2004 12:34 am (UTC)From:LOL. By that logic I should be God, or something equally magical, since anything over 0 equals infinity. ^_^
since I wasn't experiencing massive magical/psychic attacks every other day
Odd. Dysfunctional, really (coming from me, this is!). If I were to make such a statement (which I wouldn't) I would be more likely to base it on how many positive experiences one was having daily. I put far more value (if the same amount of skepticism) on "I was healing the planet with the Goddess!" than "I was being attacked by a mutant artichoke from Pluto". (mmm.. get the butter)
He was just a dreadfully insecure and pointless little drama queen trying to make himself look bigger and more powerful than he really was.
But see, I do this too... just in more subtle ways, usually having to do with trying to please people. I dunno, maybe all but the most developed of us do this, but somehow I feel like it's only people in a certain.. state.. or something.
no subject
Date: May. 30th, 2004 12:45 am (UTC)From:That is in my opinion utter hogwash and fairly depressing to boot. I can manage Sight at times, and I did not learn how until my coven training, which started when I was 30 and I just learned the trick of astral Sight approximately two months ago (a fiend of mine helped awaken it in me). Coincidentally, I have just been chatting with
no subject
Date: May. 31st, 2004 12:48 am (UTC)From:Well, when he and RJ agreed on it, and Orion is an acquaintance (friend?) of Rialian's as well, I certainly have good reason to believe it. See some other comment where I said a bit more about what I mean by it; psychic or spiritual perception (in which I am also lacking, but that's here nor there) is not exactly under consideration. There is a certain "power" which is passed down through bloodlines, and some have it and some don't.
It looks like I'll be teaching one in seeing auras and similar perceptions
...which despite multiple attempts over more than 10 years, I have not been able to see.
I still find it ludicrous and amusing that
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Date: May. 30th, 2004 07:26 am (UTC)From:===It shows up in a variety of ways, at various levels. My "sight" is less intense than my "simply knowing"....which is another way the sight comes to one.
===I do know that no amount of compliments or impressions are going to convince you that you are on the right track, or that you should be somewhere. Your inner critic is rather active, and even saying that is going to set it off. If you want my honest opinion, I think that part of it is that you have hinged part of your personal identity on what feedback you get for indulging the critic so much.
===I happen to believe that you have a lot to offer, that you are a fine person that has a lot to them.
===You are most welcome at Thresholds...even if you do not think you have the "spark"...you apparently have something that is able to completely fool everyone else around you.
===Sometimes people find their keys in questions...and they lock themselves up in things that they are terrified to unlock. I suspect that the lock in your case is bound up in the feedback loop of the critic and folks telling you what they actually do see.
===If you have the pull to do this, to the level you have it...then I woudl say that there is something on the other side yanking on you.(smiles)
no subject
Date: May. 31st, 2004 12:43 am (UTC)From:See comment to someone else that I am meaning something slightly different than "psychic perception" (which I agree is not solely, or even mostly, through the visual sense) when I use the term.
Your inner critic is rather active, and even saying that is going to set it off.
Unlikely, since it's never "dormant" to be "set off". lol. Seriously, I'm quite aware of that.
If you want my honest opinion, I think that part of it is that you have hinged part of your personal identity on what feedback you get for indulging the critic so much.
I dunno.. I never seem to get the feedback I "want" (it seems I know truthful types who won't mention something that isn't there), so how is this (mal)adaptive for my psyche? I mean, I know it's not healthy, but if it's not even getting results...? I figure there must be some other reason. No subconscious does something if it's not satisfied with what it's getting.
even if you do not think you have the "spark"...you apparently have something that is able to completely fool everyone else around you.
Well, it depends on your definition of "everyone" for one, and what "fooling" is for another. That others tolerate my presence is not adequate evidence for me that they see in me an equivalent to their own existence, and yet, this is something private and sensitive enough that I can't ask about it. The only evidence I get is that which comes spontaneously from those who would have no other way to know, and I can only think of about a single incident total (formed of two halves, which were not from the same person) which count for that.
[...] things that they are terrified to unlock. I suspect that the lock in your case is bound up in the feedback loop of the critic and folks telling you what they actually do see.
*cocks eyebrow* Huh?
then I woudl say that there is something on the other side yanking on you
This bit is actually VERY interesting in light of something that happened in the workshop today (today was rather less depressing than yesterday), but which I'm still processing. (I tried to write about it a couple times but only wound up[ doubling the length of this comment in weird ways, so I'll skip it for now.)