Do atheists ever wonder why they're so certain all of the time, given what a miniscule slice of subjective experience of all that there is they could possibly posess with their limited faculties, and compare this certainty to the phenomenon of unquestioning faith, which is also based on a miniscule slice of subjective experience mistaken for "objective truth"?
Or why atheists feel the need to bring Xtianity into every discussion of anything, even if it has absolutely nothing to do with the subject matter at hand?
I'm not really relating it to my religion at all. It's not that philosophical of a dilemma... more like "why do I keep trying to do something I just don't seem to be good at?"
why are theists so damned certain about the same thing?
Couldn't tell you... ask a "theist", whatever you define that as.
how can agnostics even claim ANY form of certainlty without completely contradicting themselves?
My assertion is that no one can really claim any form of certainty without completely contradicting themselves at one point or another, regardless of what pholosophical label they brand themselves with.
let's face it ~ the majority of the world's human population at least claims to be christian. it only makes sense to use the majority to make comparisons
You really should avoid throwing out statistical data without knowing what you're talking about first: weakens your argument through sheer sloppiness, whatever your argument may be.
why do people assume that nonchristian = atheist? in particular, that i'm an atheist?
Who said anything about you? I introduced atheism in adherence of the precedent you established by bringing up totally unrelated issues (by mentioning Christianity).
because they can't grasp the concept of completely extricating oneself from the whole foolish matter altogether!
You seem to be expending a lot of effort to discuss the whole "foolish matter" if you're "extricated yourself". If this is the case, why even engage in discussion?
it has everything to do with the subject matter at hand. last time i checked, witchcraft is a RELIGION (or family thereof, rather)
Who'd you check with? What's your "higher authority"?
the practise of magic is the same damned thing as animists' invocations to the spirits and theists' prayers to their gods
In most cases, no, but then you really wouldn't know anything about that would you, since you've "extricated yourself from the whole foolish matter".
tass here seems to be questioning herself for following her chosen path because it doesn't always work. the principle is the same.
And what does this have to do with anything you've said, other than declare masturbatory self-congratulations for being intellectually superior based upon your chosen path?
Oh yeah, you didn't answer any of the questions I initially posed to you, either.
Mrrr? Please don't fight? *cuddle* I don't think Tass' diary is quite the place to do it. I know nobody started anything on either side, honest. Theist, Antitheist, Antichrist, whatever.
I expect people to know what they're talking about before they comment on a given subject, much less misrepresent a statement as objective fact when a Google search could have given them accurate data in less than five seconds.
(I can certainly appreciate your desire for decorum, and yes, everyone is different... the only way to ever bridge or understand those differences is through substantiave discussion. Unfortunately, such discussion is not always super-pleasant. I'm pretty positive that if tass takes any issue with my discussion with ahi_hay_lilitu in this thread, she won't hesitate for a moment to let me know. I'm genuinely curious to learn why ahi_hay_lilitu equates magic to witchcraft to Christianity, (which seems to be the only reason she even responded to the question tass posed in the first place) and the only way to learn this is by asking questions.)
Well, you're wrong.. in my desire not to offend I tend to wait and see if things will go away... but now that you've brought it up, I'd appreciate if you and ahi_hay_lilitu would take it somewhere else if you want to have this discussion. It's not something I'm terribly interested in to begin with, so it's "off topic" in my journal, if you will, and neverminding that, I just really don't want an argument going on in my comments, huh?
Well, the *trying* is happy/neutral, but the failure certainly isn't. On some occasions they cancel out; on others there's a residue of discouragement left behind which has built up over time.
Your attitudes might be changing then. I don't think that's something you can fight, much as I'd like to say, "don't feel that way."
If you feel it isn't for you deep down, it won't be for you if that's not what you truly want. Or perhaps it's simply the wrong direction you've chosen. You might find another form of the same to be very encouraging.
I'm a chaos mage m'self. At least that's the name other's have given to it. I've never had a name for it, personally. I just do, and have never understood ritual in the least. My kind is probably where "the evil eye" came from... just a thought, a recognition, a need, and there it is. Faith, not will.
So people always say, but that's only when it's apparent what part(s) of the process were responsible for that result. All I can guess is that I seem to lack something essential.
I almost never know what went wrong or why. From what you've written, you do seem to feel that something is happening, and that's a major step for a lot of people.
I think you should be proud. It's not always winning the race that counts. Sometimes, it's that you beat your own best time, that you finished, or even that you just strapped on shoes.
I don't keep a log of my apparent successes and failures. I might find it incredibly depressing if I did, but that's not why. If I achieve one success, I know it's worth the effort of trying again and again until the next one.
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no subject
Date: Oct. 19th, 2003 01:43 am (UTC)From:no subject
Date: Oct. 19th, 2003 02:52 am (UTC)From:a related question:
Date: Oct. 19th, 2003 03:18 am (UTC)From:Or why atheists feel the need to bring Xtianity into every discussion of anything, even if it has absolutely nothing to do with the subject matter at hand?
Missionary zeal, perhaps?
objectivity: the unattainable goal.
Date: Oct. 19th, 2003 02:31 pm (UTC)From:Re: objectivity: the unattainable goal.
Date: Oct. 19th, 2003 02:38 pm (UTC)From:Re: objectivity: the unattainable goal.
Date: Oct. 19th, 2003 04:33 pm (UTC)From:How else do you get good at something? Practice practice practice. :)
no subject
Date: Oct. 20th, 2003 12:29 am (UTC)From:Taken from the top:
Date: Oct. 19th, 2003 04:31 pm (UTC)From:Couldn't tell you... ask a "theist", whatever you define that as.
how can agnostics even claim ANY form of certainlty without completely contradicting themselves?
My assertion is that no one can really claim any form of certainty without completely contradicting themselves at one point or another, regardless of what pholosophical label they brand themselves with.
let's face it ~ the majority of the world's human population at least claims to be christian. it only makes sense to use the majority to make comparisons
At the risk of being pedantic: nope
(source)
You really should avoid throwing out statistical data without knowing what you're talking about first: weakens your argument through sheer sloppiness, whatever your argument may be.
why do people assume that nonchristian = atheist? in particular, that i'm an atheist?
Who said anything about you? I introduced atheism in adherence of the precedent you established by bringing up totally unrelated issues (by mentioning Christianity).
because they can't grasp the concept of completely extricating oneself from the whole foolish matter altogether!
You seem to be expending a lot of effort to discuss the whole "foolish matter" if you're "extricated yourself". If this is the case, why even engage in discussion?
it has everything to do with the subject matter at hand. last time i checked, witchcraft is a RELIGION (or family thereof, rather)
Who'd you check with? What's your "higher authority"?
the practise of magic is the same damned thing as animists' invocations to the spirits and theists' prayers to their gods
In most cases, no, but then you really wouldn't know anything about that would you, since you've "extricated yourself from the whole foolish matter".
tass here seems to be questioning herself for following her chosen path because it doesn't always work. the principle is the same.
And what does this have to do with anything you've said, other than declare masturbatory self-congratulations for being intellectually superior based upon your chosen path?
Oh yeah, you didn't answer any of the questions I initially posed to you, either.
Re: Taken from the top:
Date: Oct. 19th, 2003 08:17 pm (UTC)From:Everybody's different. (Charts??! ;)
Re: Taken from the top:
Date: Oct. 19th, 2003 10:17 pm (UTC)From:I expect people to know what they're talking about before they comment on a given subject, much less misrepresent a statement as objective fact when a Google search could have given them accurate data in less than five seconds.
(I can certainly appreciate your desire for decorum, and yes, everyone is different... the only way to ever bridge or understand those differences is through substantiave discussion. Unfortunately, such discussion is not always super-pleasant. I'm pretty positive that if
Re: Taken from the top:
Date: Oct. 20th, 2003 12:19 pm (UTC)From:Re: Taken from the top:
Date: Oct. 20th, 2003 12:38 pm (UTC)From:Re: Taken from the top:
Date: Oct. 20th, 2003 12:58 pm (UTC)From:no subject
Date: Oct. 20th, 2003 01:30 pm (UTC)From:round and round and round we go.
Date: Oct. 20th, 2003 01:27 am (UTC)From:Re: round and round and round we go.
Date: Oct. 20th, 2003 12:28 pm (UTC)From:this isn't really interesting to me and i don't want an argument going on in my personal journal, so can you please stop?
no subject
Date: Oct. 20th, 2003 04:41 pm (UTC)From:no subject
Date: Oct. 19th, 2003 01:23 pm (UTC)From:no subject
Date: Oct. 19th, 2003 03:21 am (UTC)From:no subject
Date: Oct. 19th, 2003 01:24 pm (UTC)From:no subject
Date: Oct. 19th, 2003 04:35 pm (UTC)From:Besides, I like the idea of having you as a colleague. :)
no subject
Date: Oct. 19th, 2003 10:07 am (UTC)From:no subject
Date: Oct. 19th, 2003 10:18 am (UTC)From:no subject
Date: Oct. 19th, 2003 01:25 pm (UTC)From:no subject
Date: Oct. 19th, 2003 08:21 pm (UTC)From:If you feel it isn't for you deep down, it won't be for you if that's not what you truly want. Or perhaps it's simply the wrong direction you've chosen. You might find another form of the same to be very encouraging.
I'm a chaos mage m'self. At least that's the name other's have given to it. I've never had a name for it, personally. I just do, and have never understood ritual in the least. My kind is probably where "the evil eye" came from... just a thought, a recognition, a need, and there it is. Faith, not will.
no subject
Date: Oct. 19th, 2003 10:46 am (UTC)From:Nonsuccess teaches. Particularly in such a broad and difficult field. Success is not the sole basis for learning.
In fewer words: Yup. Be proud.
no subject
Date: Oct. 19th, 2003 01:27 pm (UTC)From:So people always say, but that's only when it's apparent what part(s) of the process were responsible for that result. All I can guess is that I seem to lack something essential.
no subject
Date: Oct. 19th, 2003 03:13 pm (UTC)From:I think you should be proud. It's not always winning the race that counts. Sometimes, it's that you beat your own best time, that you finished, or even that you just strapped on shoes.
I don't keep a log of my apparent successes and failures. I might find it incredibly depressing if I did, but that's not why. If I achieve one success, I know it's worth the effort of trying again and again until the next one.
I hope that makes sense.
no subject