Well, sort of. See, I was there for the KN and WtT workshops which sparked all this hoo-hah about Cliff, watched and participated in the ensuing messes on elven-realities and kinfrontiers, have met and talked with Cliff on a few other occasions, and of course am quite close to Cel who sees him about weekly. Rialian was also there to see all of it and is therefore justified in making judgements, even if I disagree with them.
But anyone who wasn't there and is just basing things on what their friends/admired people say (whether they are siding with Rialian, Cliff, or neither)... it made sad, is all, to see you jump in with "WHAT? what an idiot!" and essentially agreeing with everything Rialian said even though you had none of the background.
Basically it just comes down to it seems that almost all the people I have thought of as shiny and "like me" (i.e., I sense an underlying similarity, our brains seem to work vaguely similar ways, what I can tell about our thoughts and experiences are vaguely kindred, as opposed to the wild sense of alienation and difference I get from most of the 'kin scene) are suddenly fracturing along lines I can't seem to cross, making disparaging statements about one another, etc.
I have done well in my time of staying out of 'kin social politics, and this time I seem to be not too far from ground zero, simply by virtue of who I like, who I love and who I choose to associate with. It's tearing me in several directions and I just don't know how to handle it.
Dammit... I'm sorry to have contributed to your consternation.
I don't personally think I'm siding "with Rialian" so much as "against stupidity and bullshit".
I'll agree I haven't really got both sides of stuff... I spent a little while hanging out on KinFrontiers a couple of weeks back, seeing what stuff was going on there -- but there wasn't any of the stuff Rialian's talking about, and the flood of messages was just too much for me.
You'll notice I've pretty much dropped the issue, on the basis that I don't have all the facts. I wasn't at WtT, I wasn't on KF when the relevant stuff was being said...
I do maintain that if people are claiming that they're killing people, if they're claiming to be "above the law", "judge, jury and executioner", and especially claiming jurisdiction over all Otherkin -- by some mystical mandate from "the ancestors of the Otherkin" (huh?) -- then I will certainly call them on their bullshit. But, since I'm mostly off the lists, I haven't seen it happening lately.
Which leaves me feeling pretty weird. On the one hand, I'm realizing that I'm fairly disconnected from the community these days. There are pretty few gathers here on the West Coast (though I am interested in your idea on WestKin, and will respond there), and I simply don't have the time to keep up with the bulk of teh major email lists.
OTOH, maybe that says something right there. Maybe I should just be a solitary 'Kin, and get used to it?
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Date: Jan. 5th, 2003 05:36 pm (UTC)From:But anyone who wasn't there and is just basing things on what their friends/admired people say (whether they are siding with Rialian, Cliff, or neither)... it made sad, is all, to see you jump in with "WHAT? what an idiot!" and essentially agreeing with everything Rialian said even though you had none of the background.
Basically it just comes down to it seems that almost all the people I have thought of as shiny and "like me" (i.e., I sense an underlying similarity, our brains seem to work vaguely similar ways, what I can tell about our thoughts and experiences are vaguely kindred, as opposed to the wild sense of alienation and difference I get from most of the 'kin scene) are suddenly fracturing along lines I can't seem to cross, making disparaging statements about one another, etc.
I have done well in my time of staying out of 'kin social politics, and this time I seem to be not too far from ground zero, simply by virtue of who I like, who I love and who I choose to associate with. It's tearing me in several directions and I just don't know how to handle it.
no subject
Date: Jan. 6th, 2003 01:40 pm (UTC)From:I don't personally think I'm siding "with Rialian" so much as "against stupidity and bullshit".
I'll agree I haven't really got both sides of stuff... I spent a little while hanging out on KinFrontiers a couple of weeks back, seeing what stuff was going on there -- but there wasn't any of the stuff Rialian's talking about, and the flood of messages was just too much for me.
You'll notice I've pretty much dropped the issue, on the basis that I don't have all the facts. I wasn't at WtT, I wasn't on KF when the relevant stuff was being said...
I do maintain that if people are claiming that they're killing people, if they're claiming to be "above the law", "judge, jury and executioner", and especially claiming jurisdiction over all Otherkin -- by some mystical mandate from "the ancestors of the Otherkin" (huh?) -- then I will certainly call them on their bullshit. But, since I'm mostly off the lists, I haven't seen it happening lately.
Which leaves me feeling pretty weird. On the one hand, I'm realizing that I'm fairly disconnected from the community these days. There are pretty few gathers here on the West Coast (though I am interested in your idea on WestKin, and will respond there), and I simply don't have the time to keep up with the bulk of teh major email lists.
OTOH, maybe that says something right there. Maybe I should just be a solitary 'Kin, and get used to it?
I don't really like that option, either.